“Perfect,” sneered Toby as Kate was absorbed back into her sibling unit.
“The way it’s always been.”
Steinberg, who wrote the episode.
Chrissy Metz as Kate, Johnny Kincaid as Jack Jr., Chris Sullivan as Toby.Ron Batzdorff/NBC
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Welp, the situation worsened yet again.
We know what lies ahead in the future for Kate and Toby.
How close are we to the point that Katoby is kaput?
STEINBERG:I think at the end of the episode, there’s still hope.
There’s a recognition that something’s gotta change.
They are at the rubicon.
Their lives have strangely taken different paths.
The end of this episode gives them clarity that they really have to stop just hoping things get better.
They need to work tomakethings get better.
Given their stack of issues and lack of connection points, how do they put in that work?
Where might they turn for help, professionally and personally, especially given the challenges in their family?
And it’s not going to look like what they thought it would look like.
And it’s not going to look like what the audience thinks it’s going to look like.
Even the very little ones, they see truth.
The adults are often lying to themselves and each other about how things are going in the family.
They’re letting things slide.
They are just trying to get through the everyday.
Little Johnny [whohas low vision and nystagmus] was impressive in this episode.
What sticks out to you about filming these scenes with him?
He infuses the entire cast and crew with joy, and he is in the moment.
He teaches and reteaches how to be present.
When he was crossing that street alone, we owned the street.
Walking the world alone, he looked so small.
was called, we all let it out.
We all felt like we were responsible for him, and he represented something to us.
Also, one adorable thing that he would do every time is he would call the bell.
Before we start a take and we roll, we need to lock the set down.
So the red lights go on, everybody quiets down so we could start filming.
So he would with his little voice call to our 250-person company, “Belllll!”
And sometimes he would say, “Cut!”
Sounds like he’ll be directing, like the other cast members, by the end of the season!
It was an earthquake of a wake-up call for them.
Children externalize what we think we’re hiding as parents.
Toby and Kate have become increasingly blunt and harsh in their fights.
As you were writing these words, whose truths and barbs hit the hardest?
The things that hurt the most between this couple are the hurts that they’ve been harboring the longest.
But one could also argue that that’s Kate’s deepest hurt.
Do you want me in your life anymore?"
But in that moment, it’s the most wounding thing to say to her.
Both Kate and Toby have the best intentions, and they are coming into their own.
It’s a cautionary tale, for any relationship.
They met and they were both damaged, and ready to heal.
Kate certainly was ready to heal.
I think that he helped.
The love that he gave her was healing and is healthy.
And she did get healthy in so, so many ways in that relationship.
But her journey to self-fulfillment and to self-actualization eventually moved beyond that honeymoon phase.
As he says in episode 9, “You fell in love with a coping mechanism.”
Both of them had waited so long for their real lives to begin.
You’ve always wanted kids?
You do that right away.
Which is a really normal, natural thing that happens in the exhaustion of parenting.
I think it’s a huge symbol for her.
The gate has become a point of conflict for them.
1, not Kevin.
The way it always is."
How much of his insecurity about his value in her life is in play here?
Any person that marries into a really close family especially one bound by tragedy it’s hard to penetrate.
Even not bound by tragedy.
Any close family with close siblings.
Especially with this very specific landscape of the Pearson family with triplets.
So there are bonds there that are impenetrable.
I have always felt for Toby in trying to compete with those.
There’s not only bonds, but a layer of the protective brothers.
And that never went away.
And there were missed opportunities for both of them.
Take us inside the writers' room.
No writer was ever on one side consistently.
And what we endeavored to do it’s like a good documentary.
I really see it this other way."
Or were you somewhere in the middle, torn?
I felt it was an act of triumph for the character as a whole.
“Well, if he did thisthisway, then I’m gonna do thisthisway.”
So I thought it was mostly triumphant.
Viewers didn’t get the Miguel-Rebecca backstory they’ve been waiting for.
The episode with their anniversary party would’ve been a logical place to flashback to it.
Then again, they didn’t even get their anniversary party.
How soon is the Miguel-Rebecca reconnection story coming?
You’re going to get an epic, satisfying, gorgeous version of it in episode 15.
And if so, was itthe secret ingredient to the sugar pie?
So you had an idea and you told Mandy what it was?
No, Mandy came up with it herself.
We’re getting to some real painful moments of decline"?
I would say:Brace.
This episode is a really good snapshot of this moment in time in her disease.
I have a family member who’s going through it and I visited her yesterday.
Both things can be true.
Randall wisely talks him out of it.
Can we consider the Madison door closed now or might we have another situation on another wedding day?
I think it’s beautifully closed.
I mean, she did “Hey, Kev?”
him three times when he started to leave.And they had some lingering looks.
How do you recalibrate or redefine that love?
They do not want to let each other go.
That’s the answer.
But sometimes, you have to in certain ways.
There’s a lot on the line for Toby and Kate in the next episode.
What’s your cryptic tease?
Structurally it’s really different and really interesting.
It moves through time in a way that gives you a scope that will really help you understand.
And the answer is, “Yes.”
This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.
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